LCMI - Bringing back the real heart of Christ Jesus to this world

www.sonsofgod.org.uk

ONENESS - TRINITARIAN: THE TRUTH

Oneness - Trinitarian
THE TRUTH

An examination of the history and doctrines of the Oneness & Trinitarian groupings within the Evangelical-Pentecostal World. Is there an answer to this great doctrinal divide?

Rev David Griffiths

Rev. David P. Griffiths 
seeks God for a solution

1)   History of the Doctrinal Divide

Having witnessed the massive feeling that exists between both sides, it is important to go back and identify the history of the schism.

To deal with the Pentecostal divide first. Both sides were together at the Azusa Street Pentecostal Revival in Los Angeles. At this time both sides of the divide stood together worshipping and praising God hearing each other preaching.

A.D. Urshan was opposed to the divide adopting a neutral stance within the Assemblies of God before the divide occurred. After the Oneness group were expelled from A.O.G. in 1916 Urshan was able to minister amongst both the Trinitarian and Oneness groupings breaking through the great doctrinal divide. We ask if this is possible today.

Looking back at the schism we can view a lack of understanding of each other's position with accusations from the Trinitarian side of the Oneness side denying the Father, and the Oneness group accusing Trinitarians in believing in three Gods! Blatant attacks on the unbiblical term "trinity" occurred but then the term "oneness" is unbiblical too! We ask that even though these terms are unbiblical, can there be signs in the Word of God that the meanings of these words are fully Biblical!

We also ask if legalism was building up on both sides with the doctrine becoming more important than Jesus Christ. My heart is to explore this and see if God is bringing about reconciliation.

The main "oneness" grouping to develop out of the schism was the United Pentecostal Church where it seemed to have been taught that one had to be baptised in Jesus name and speak in tongues to be included in the New Testament plan of salvation.

http://www.ninetyandnine.com/Archives/20070423/cover.htm

The history of the schism can become complex as differing views began to develop on both sides, a former active member of the U.P.C. Lois Gibson declaring that some U.P.C. members regarded Trinitarians as fellow Christians whilst others did not.

http://www.spiritualabuse.org/issues/onenessvtrinity.html

A different expression of oneness occurred in the Evangelical World with the teaching of Norman Grubb. From his article, "No Independent Self" Grubb declared, " There is no independent, self-operating self in the universe, except the One who calls himself the I AM, and says, "I am God and there is none else .. There is no other God beside Me."

Ex. 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Isaiah 45:21,22 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

http://www.unionlife.org/Independent.htm

My father, a former Worldwide Evangelization Crusade missionary trained under Rees Howells at Swansea regularly corresponded with Norman Grubb. This is part of one letter.

Letter Fragment

Here Norman Grubb makes the following key points;

i)                   Once being joined to Satan - formerly walking "Satans"

ii)                 Thru Calvary joined to Christ - now by grace walking Christs

iii)               BEING He as us

iv)               Never was just an "independent me"

There is strong scriptural support for what was a controversial BELIEF STRUCTURE.

Matthew 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The proof points coming from this passage are:

i)                   "Flesh and blood" had not revealed the truth to Peter.

ii)                 Peter (yet not Peter but Christ on earth - Peter as Christ; Gal. 2:20) was to be the rock on which the Church was to be built.

iii)               Peter (and all following "walking Christs" given the keys meaning all authority.

iv)               When Peter started to express from "his" (yet not his) thinking "his" (yet not his) thoughts about what was to happen - he moved from being "the rock" to being a "walking Satan"!

James A. Fowler develops the doctrine into the understanding of "Three divine onenesses". Three divine onenesses serve to form the structure of all Christian theology. Trinitarian oneness explains the oneness of the three persons of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the same Being of the one God. Christological oneness is the explanation of deity and humanity being hypostatically united in the one God-man, Jesus Christ. Christian oneness is the union of Christ and the Christian in "one spirit." The unity of the three divine onenesses comprises the one gospel message of the Trinitarian God interacting with and in humanity.

Here we develop the belief of Trinitarian oneness which we will develop in Part 4 - The Grace Step. (The term "Trinitarian" is being used only to bring undersJuly 3, 2007term). http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/3divineonenesses.pdf

2)   Oneness Doctrine

Pentecostal Belief: A summary of the oneness belief is that the doctrine relates God as being absolutely one numerically, Jesus being the only God, the term person relating only to human beings. It is not quite as simple as this and so I endeavour here to get to the heart of the doctrine for there does not seem to be a denial of the term "Father", "Son", or "Spirit", but these seem to be accepted as titles of the one God rather than being three persons.

As the term "persons" is rejected, then the above titles are "manifestations" instead. Nearly all groupings seem to hold to the belief that receiving the Holy Spirit is evidenced initially by speaking in tongues rejecting the term "Jesus Only" as this implies a rejection of belief in the Father.

The nickname "Jesus Only" may relate, however to the way Oneness Pentecostals baptize which is in the name of Jesus only. This activity is supported by the following scriptures:

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

(Note "Name" is singular and "Father" "Son" "Holy Ghost" are titles and not names)

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Elvis Presley reports David Bernard was originally baptized in an Assemblies of God Church and then re-baptized by a oneness Church in Tennessee. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostal

An explanation of "The Father" in Oneness belief seems to relate to Christ Jesus deity in heaven and the title "Son" as his deity manifested in the flesh.

I Tim. 3: 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Isa. 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Col. 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/optrin.htm

Further Pentecostal Oneness Beliefs

i)                   One God is one person

ii)                 The Father became incarnated as the Son of God (begotten)

iii)               The Son did not exist until the Incarnation when God appeared as the Son. The Son still existed, however, but as the Father, the title relating to God as a man - not as deity.

iv)               All distinctions are a result of the relationship between the Holy Ghost and the incarnate God-man.

v)                 The Word (John 1) expressed as the Son of God.

vi)               We will see Jesus Christ in heaven - having been God manifest in the flesh.

vii)             Trinitarian belief is tri-theism (not always), the very term "Trinity" being pagan in origin.

viii)           Holiness Lifestyle

ix)               Jesus is the Holy Ghost

II Cor. 3: 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Rom. 8: 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

ix)  Atoning death, resurrection, soon coming Christ

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/onetrindisagree.htm

Evangelical Belief.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

In looking to bring together Oneness and Trinitarian groups we need to develop an understanding that there is more than one kind of oneness. James A. Fowler declares that there are seven kinds of onenesses developed by Paul. To bring understanding of what became Evangelical oneness I use James Fowler's excellent material that relates to this Ephesians 4 description. Fowler refers to these as "three divine onenesses":

i)                   The Trinitarian oneness of Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the one Godhead

ii)                 The Christological oneness of deity and humanity in the one Lord and mediator Jesus Christ

iii)               The Christian oneness of the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of an individual or the collective church in the "one spirit" union with Christ.

Norman Grubb writing for "Union Life" in 1979 declared; "The central secret of all history is the union of the creature and the Creator.  Not just the Creator.  Certainly not just the creature.  But the union.  We've found the whole meaning of life in time and eternity when we've found that."

Evangelical oneness, therefore was not only referring to the oneness of the Godhead but also of the oneness or unity of the creature with the Creator.

Col. 2:9: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

I Cor. 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

http://www.normangrubb.com/Articles/TheCentralSecretOfUnion.htm

3)   Trinitarian Doctrine

The Westminster Confession of Faith 1647 stated; "In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons (personae), of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost." 

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/optrin.htm

Trinitarian belief is thus summarised:

i)     &July 3, 2007    Three persons on one God, there being three essential distinctions in God's nature.

ii)                 Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons, co-equal, co-eternal and of co-essence.

iii)               Jesus is the incarnation of God the Son, Jesus not being the Father or the Holy Ghost.

iv)               The Son is eternal, eternally begotten of the Father.

v)                 The "Word" of John 1 is the second person in the Godhead.

vi)               Jesus is the human name given to God the Son.

vii)             Baptism is " in the name of the Father .."

viii)           We will see the Trinity in heaven but how this happens is presented in varying ways. The Godhead is a mystery which we must accept. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Ch12.htm#t11

Trinitarians in defending their belief system will point out the distinction between what is seen as the Biblical Trinity and trinities from other religions. Oneness believers often press the charge that the concept and very use of the word "Trinity" is pagan in origin. Jehovah's Witnesses press this charge in their "Trinity" publication stating that Hindu gods Brahma, Siva and Vishnu are a trinity. The problem with this argument, however is that in Hinduism they are still seen as separate gods whereas Father, Son and Holy Ghost in Trinitarian belief are not.

http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/trinityandpaganism.htm

Grudem defines the Trinity this way; "God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God." (Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology, p 226).

F. J. Sheed; "In the one Divine Nature, there are three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost is not the Father: no one of the Persons is either of the others. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God. There are not three Gods but one God." (F.J. Sheed, God: Unity and Trinity (1955), p. 56)

Athanasian Creed: "We worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity; we distinguish among the persons, but we do not divide the substance. The entire three persons are co-eternal and co-equal with one another, so that ... we worship complete unity in Trinity and Trinity in unity."

Louis Berkhof: "There is in the Divine Being but one indivisible essence (ousia, essentia)...In this one Divine Being there are three Persons or individual subsistences, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons...The subsistence and operation of the three persons in the Divine Being is marked by a certain definite order...There are certain personal attributes by which the three persons are distinguised...The Church confesses the Trinity to be a mystery beyond the comprehension of man." (Louis Berkhof, Systematic Theology (1984 ed.), pp. 87-89).

R. T. Kendall: "Trinity: One God in three Persons: Father, Son, Spirit.
1.   God is one in his essential being but in this being there are three persons.
  (a)   Though there are three persons they do not compete with each other.
  (b)   They are three modes or forms in which the divine being manifests himself to us.

2. The three persons are self-distinctive in the one true God.
  (a)   The divine essence is wholly in each person.
  (b)   This means the Father is wholly God, the Son is wholly God and the Spirit is wholly God.
    (1)   Jesus is distinct from the Father but is truly God even as the Father is God.
    (2)   The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Son and the Father but is truly God as is either the Son or the Father." (R.T. Kendall, Understanding Theology, p. 29)
http://www.spotlightministries.org.uk/trinitydefinitions.htm

4)   The Grace Step

Some say that this great theological divide is simply a case of semantics, and in certain cases it is. For example it would appear that both Oneness and Trinitarian believers accept:

i)                   God is one

ii)                 Father, Son and Holy Ghost are God

iii)               Deity of Christ Jesus

iv)               A Distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost

v)                 That Jesus was praying to the Father, not to himself

So - is there an answer to this great theological divide?

http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/onetrindisagree.htm

This great theological divide has probably brought about more hurts and ill feeling than any other issue the Church witnessed in the twentieth century. New Oneness believers coming from Trinitarian backgrounds have been re-baptised in the name of Jesus thus apparently making null and void their original baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

So - who is right and who is wrong? Are both right or are both wrong? The objective of the Grace Step is to find a solution that does not involve compromise to the two belief systems.

I believe God is calling a reconciliation for after all the Pentecostal world was together at Azusa Street so why not today? The Evangelical World was together in the exciting days of Rees Howells intercessions but today many back off when they hear of Grubb's "no independent self"!

James A Fowler's work, I believe provides a solution. To unravel what can be a complex issue, we begin with the issues raised in this paper to date before going further into the understanding that there is more than one kind of oneness in the Bible.

ISSUE 1: THE BAPTISM QUESTION

It is true to say in quoting Matthew 28:19 that the terms "Father", Son, and "Holy Ghost" are not names but titles and the scripture does say to baptize "IN THE NAME!" This can only relate to one name and this name is JESUS!

Col. 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The examples of the way the Early Church baptize give further support to baptising this way and it is not good enough as some Trinitarians state that the instruction is to baptize using the Trinitarian formula with the name referring to "in the authority of". This simply does not make sense but using the right formula is surely not the essential point. This has to be the individual's life before God for it is with the heart we believe unto righteousness for the letter killeth and the Spirit gives life!

Rom. 10: 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

II Cor. 3: 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Romans 6:3 declares that those who were baptized were baptized into the death of the Lord Jesus. This surely places the onus on the individual's heart rather than on the person doing the baptizing! Has there been a realisation that this baptism was a baptism into death? This is the most important point for it is with the heart that we believe unto righteousness.

This is where one of the Evangelical doctrines supported by James A. Fowler comes in because there has to be the Christological oneness of Christ Jesus and humanity taking part in this process, a process that goes further with the one being baptized being joined as one spirit with Jesus.

Romans 6: 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Jer. 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

I Cor. 6: 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.

16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The conclusion coming out of this study, therefore, is that surely it is a matter between the individual and God, God seeing the heart, the individual being baptized by the heart into the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, the individual confessing the name JESUS.

Whether Father, Son and Holy Ghost are expressions or persons of the Godhead is not the essential question here for JESUS is the fullness of the Godhead. JESUS is in the central position here and it is his NAME being referred to in Matthew 28. His name, however, is not to be used as a statement of legal formula but rather a heart felt cry from the heart. Within this context, therefore, I am suggesting to both sides of the divide to baptize IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, AND OF THE SON, AND OF THE HOLY GHOST - that is INTO THE NAME OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST - HIS DEATH - AND HIS RESURRECTION.

ISSUE 2 - RE-BAPTISM

This would only be done on the individual being convicted by God in relation to the first baptism being a legalistic exercise rather than one of the heart.

ISSUE 3 - SEMANTICS

Other Oneness to Trinitarian issues seems to be a question of the use of words and interpretations which vary on both sides of the argument and so is there a grace road in bringing all parties together?

On either side we have to ask the question as to whether the doctrine is of the supreme importance or the devotion to Jesus Christ.

In exploring this issue before God, the Holy Ghost led my wife Lindsay and I to the evil spirit responsible for this massive divide. Within this spirit has been a whole army of spirits causing divide and hurts amongst those who have placed the doctrine in a higher position than Christ Jesus himself.

ISSUE 4 - MORE THAN ONE KIND OF ONENESS

The desire to study the deep things of God is essential for Christian growth. From study comes revelation rather than discourse over areas of theology which can be unfruitful. With such a question as the Oneness -Trinitarian debate there surely has to be an understanding love from one side to the other, with a love of the Lord in the pre-eminent position.

Surely there is scope to have a reconciliation of the groups involved with the Azusa Street revival which began with a call to holiness and separation from the World. This reconciliation, however, has to be of the Lord because of the academic "higher criticism" techniques which are destroying the faith level in organisations like Elim and Assemblies of God. The real divide is not between "Oneness" and "Trinitarian" but between those who have infiltrated the groupings with intellect rather than the power of the Holy Ghost, this power manifesting on both sides of the historic divide with those who believe from the heart.

The issue can be a complex one for in the following John 17 scripture is the prayer of the Son to the Father that we be one as He and the Father are one!

II Tim. 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

ISSUE 5 - ACCUSING EACH OTHER OF "UNSOUND DOCTRINE"

Time has come to move on!

Phil. 3: 6  Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

The Continuation and Development of Understanding

James A Fowler states that such is the mystery of God's onenesses that understanding can only come through revelation. Both sides of the oneness debate have always claimed to believe in monotheism and this is clearly supported in the WORD OF GOD.

Deut. 6: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12: 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

I Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph. 4: 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

I Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

In his statement that He and His Father are one, Jesus is clearly intimating that this oneness is a oneness of essence rather than intent; John 10:30. This follows on into Paul's teachings which develop John 17:21 which has the prayer of Jesus "that they be one as we are one". There is no dispute in classical Christian circles of the divinity of the Godhead but for "they" (meaning us in John 17) to be the same, it surely has to be "true" that even though "they" (meaning us - not Father, Son, Spirit) have been created "they" have be divine too because "they" are to be one as the Godhead is one!

This perspective is supported by many scriptures and so must be the uniting factor healing the Trinitarian - Oneness splits both in the Pentecostal and Evangelical arenas. The scriptures show our oneness and fellowship with the Godhead showing clearly that many perspectives on both sides of the divide have been right.

II Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

I John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

I Cor. 1: 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Phil. 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

Phil. 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Gal. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph. 5: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

There is a balance, therefore to be maintained between distinction and oneness because both are featured in the Bible both in the Godhead and in our relationship with the Godhead. What happens is that groups tend to specialise on one aspect of the theology and become unbalanced. In this particular dispute between "Oneness" and "Trinitarian" we ask the question as to whether this has happened here, or are we as a ministry going to lose our many friends on both sides of the divide. http://www.christinyou.net/pages/3divineonenesses.html